tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post2866748538271677541..comments2023-11-05T01:05:14.895-07:00Comments on A Blog from Hell: He'll argue with me, but he won't tell me about it.normdoeringhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03279378756658563565noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-31854953958917928452011-03-07T18:46:11.528-08:002011-03-07T18:46:11.528-08:00Hello people.
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But some of the commentators are just posting stupid words.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-27871273839317706912011-02-20T14:06:13.223-08:002011-02-20T14:06:13.223-08:00thanks for this nice post 111213thanks for this nice post 111213Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-67786698475214759272011-02-20T02:48:01.881-08:002011-02-20T02:48:01.881-08:00It is remarkable, this rather valuable opinionIt is remarkable, this rather valuable opinionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-59067255385973681052010-12-19T07:11:19.591-08:002010-12-19T07:11:19.591-08:00Your blog is pretty slow to load in Firefox.Your blog is pretty slow to load in Firefox.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-50792875645228791762010-12-12T02:53:36.293-08:002010-12-12T02:53:36.293-08:00Rosalie FTW :DRosalie FTW :DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-14606237948227451452010-12-07T17:33:18.400-08:002010-12-07T17:33:18.400-08:00i tried normdoering.blogspot.com in the past and ...i tried normdoering.blogspot.com in the past and i like it, just keep it up!<br /><br />i am sorry if i wrote in wrong section and please admins to move this to another place.<br /><br />i am find ways to make money on the net. what posibilities we have? have you ever tried survey sites? i<br />t seems to be easy to make money. i found myhotrevenue dot com in my searches. IS this legit? anyone know?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-2950510798934373842010-11-23T11:25:38.643-08:002010-11-23T11:25:38.643-08:00Don't you'z folks have MySpace or Flickr...Don't you'z folks have MySpace or Flickr fan website? We all researched for one on Flickr and Facebook but then could not discover a single one. I’d like to turn into a follower! [url=http://www.lookwhosblogging.com][img]http://www.lookwhosblogging.com/images/smile.gif[/img][/url]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-74292556403780589182010-09-20T06:03:24.886-07:002010-09-20T06:03:24.886-07:00hey your blog design is very nice, neat and fresh ...hey your blog design is very nice, neat and fresh and with updated content, make people feel peace and I always like browsing your site.<br /><br />- NormanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-27181295905062367732010-09-10T10:08:27.009-07:002010-09-10T10:08:27.009-07:00[url=http://best-laptopcomputer.com]Best Laptop Co...[url=http://best-laptopcomputer.com]Best Laptop Computer[/url]<br /><br />Laptops are very prone to overheating because they have so many parts stuffed in them and they cannot be opened like you do with normal personal computers to cool them off. 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Check the online shops thoroughly and see if there are any special offers. Second is durability which is vital. Make sure you buy a branded cooler instead of a generic one. Cooling power and quietness are also important for you will want an efficient cooler that doesn't make your ears bleed, so choose wisely.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-15145380853637185302010-09-01T01:47:26.989-07:002010-09-01T01:47:26.989-07:00If you are interested in the rock and roll style [...If you are interested in the rock and roll style [b]ed hardy t shirts[/b] and fashion, the Ed hardy clothing is the right option for you. In fact this [b]ed hardy clothes[/b] line of dressing collection had been inspired from a rock star Christian Audigier and tattoo artist [u]cheap ed hardy[/u] Don Ed Hardy. 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Your ol...Your blog keeps getting better and better! Your older articles are not as good as newer ones you have a lot more creativity and originality now. Keep it up! <br />And according to this article, I tottaly agree with your opinion, but only this time! :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-27946178843181823742010-02-14T04:52:40.405-08:002010-02-14T04:52:40.405-08:00Your blog keeps getting better and better! Your ol...Your blog keeps getting better and better! Your older articles are not as good as newer ones you have a lot more creativity and originality now. Keep it up! <br />And according to this article, I tottaly agree with your opinion, but only this time! :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-76531234783287297512009-03-08T15:54:00.000-07:002009-03-08T15:54:00.000-07:00Russell Blackford wrote:"I understood that the ang...Russell Blackford wrote:<BR/><I>"I understood that the angels on a head of pin thing was a thought experiment about whether there can be an actual infinity of things, as opposed to a merely potential infinity. I.e., it's not a thought experiment in angelology but in pre-Cantorian mathematics."</I><BR/><BR/>The reputation of medieval philosophers was probably influenced by a lot of things. And where ever the angels-dancing-on-pins metaphor came from, it sure does seem to apply to Aquinas's take on angelology.<BR/><BR/>You can see for yourself if you go here: <A HREF="http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17611/17611.txt" REL="nofollow">Summa Theologica, Part I (Prima Pars), by Thomas Aquinas</A> and do a global search for "the Substance of the Angels Absolutely Considered"<BR/><BR/>There's a huge section devoted to angelology.normdoeringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03279378756658563565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-54695073539965132392009-03-08T14:44:00.000-07:002009-03-08T14:44:00.000-07:00I understood that the angels on a head of pin thin...I understood that the angels on a head of pin thing was a thought experiment about whether there can be an actual infinity of thigs, as opposed to a merely potential infinity. I.e., it's not a thought experiment in angelology but in pre-Cantorian mathematics. I've never gone back to the source, but I think I read this a long time ago in something by Rudy Rucker. In that case, the medieval thinkers who used this thought experiment have an underdeservedly bad rep for doing so.<BR/><BR/>Even now, perfectly atheistic philosophers make use of the properties of God in thought experiments, e.g. about personal identity (if God created a perfect copy of you would it be you?). So Rucker (if it was Rucker) could well be right about this.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-6097298823343764342009-03-08T09:19:00.000-07:002009-03-08T09:19:00.000-07:00memphisto wrote:"...argument reminds me of how man...memphisto wrote:<BR/><I>"...argument reminds me of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin since we don’t know ..."</I><BR/><BR/>Interesting that you bring up the old dig about medieval philosophers arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Thomas Aquinas almost did argue that and his answer would be that an infinite number of angels can dance on the head of a pin. Here's the quote:<BR/><BR/><I>"Some, however, have been deceived in this matter. For some who were unable to go beyond the reach of their imaginations supposed the indivisibility of the angel to be like that of a point; consequently they thought that an angel could be only in a place which is a point. But they were manifestly deceived, because a point is something indivisible, yet having its situation; whereas the angel is indivisible, and beyond the genus of quantity and situation. Consequently there is no occasion for determining in his regard one indivisible place as to situation: any place which is either divisible or indivisible, great or small suffices, according as to his own free-will he applies his power to a great or to a small body. So the entire body to which he is applied by his power, corresponds as one place to him."</I><BR/><BR/>Some have been deceived in this matter? How would anyone know anything like that about angels based on the information given in the Bible?normdoeringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03279378756658563565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-48428366462016579242009-03-08T08:35:00.000-07:002009-03-08T08:35:00.000-07:00You guys sure do write purdy, but I see little rea...You guys sure do write purdy, but I see little reason that either side of the debate is anything more that intellectual ping pong and as far as the amount of evidence supporting either supposition you might as well play actual ping pong to determine an answer.<BR/><BR/>For instance, the whole “first cause is intelligent” (i.e. God), “first cause was a quantum fluctuation”, or “God caused a quantum fluctuation to initiate primal cause for this universe” argument reminds me of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin since we don’t know if there is a creator (God), if the primal moment in the beginning of this universe was an actual first cause (or just the local first clause), or why the universe is the way it is to allow for creation through quantum fluctuation. It may be fun, but it’s fruitless.<BR/><BR/>On the subject of whether science is an outgrowth of Christian beliefs, that at least is historically absurd. It is just another instance of a part of modern Christianity trying to take credit for everything they see around them that they perceive to be worthwhile. Their current actions to attempt to undermine science while at the same time taking credit for it is just more evidence that they have no fealty to logic or reality. Likewise, their claim that democracy is a natural outgrowth of Christian principles, in spite of no evidence of any in the bible. Or their current dogma about abortion in spite of the bible being totally unconcerned about fetuses. Modern Christianity seem built on the paradoxical combination or abject fear and overwhelming hubris.memphistohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11294688818834943139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-69750061451580816632009-03-08T04:10:00.000-07:002009-03-08T04:10:00.000-07:00I'm not sure that it's worth arguing with someone ...I'm not sure that it's worth arguing with someone who takes that tone. I haven't read the original thread, but when someone resorts to insults and claims of superiority in the way this guy seems to have done ... well, it's (a) not very impressive and (b) it poisons the discussion. If it happened to me, I'd be inclined to warn him to be civil and maybe even to ban him from my blog. No one has a right to talk to me uncivilly in my own living room or my own blog - if someone wants to insult me they can go elsewhere and do it.<BR/><BR/>Be that as it may, I take it you are talking about The Second Way? That is a notoriously weak argument.<BR/><BR/>The argument works something like this. Apologies to Graham Oppy from whom I've adapted this, with elaboration of my own:<BR/><BR/>1. Some things are caused. (Premise: a seemingly uncontroversial empirical claim.) <BR/>2. Things that are caused are caused by things other than themselves. (Premise: a plausible claim based, perhaps, on our concept of causation, or perhaps on experience.)<BR/>3. There are no circles of causes. (Premise: this is perhaps implicit in the whole argument, though Aquinas does not deal with it; in any event, perhaps it's an acceptable assumption, though, as it's difficult to imagine a circle of causes.) <BR/>4. There are no infinite regresses of causes. (Premise.) <BR/>5. Interim conclusion 1.: There are some (i.e one or more) First Causes, i.e. things that do not have causes. (From 1, 2, 3 and 4.) <BR/>6. If there are some First Causes, there is no more than one first cause. (Premise) <BR/>7. Interim conclusion 2.: There is exactly one First Cause. (From 5 and 6.)<BR/>8. If there is exactly one First Cause, that First Cause is God. (Premise.)<BR/>9. God exists (From 7 and 8)<BR/><BR/>This is deductively valid, or can be tightened up and made so. But it is not clear that we should accept 4. Even if we do accept 4., I see absolutely no reason to accept either 6. or 8.<BR/><BR/>Once we know that at least one thing is uncaused (and is <I>in that sense</I> a First Cause), why assume that there is just one thing that is so special as to be the only thing that is uncaused? It might be claimed that Occam's Razor demands a restriction on the number of entities postulated, but that is a misapplication of Occam's Razor. The idea that there is just one First Cause is postulating a more special entity than is postulated in the conclusion that there is some class of uncaused entities. If there is a kind of uncaused thing, then for all we know things of this kind are continually coming into existence. All we know is that they are not the day-to-day human-scale things that we typically observe. But they could be things that are very small or very distant or too large for us to comprehend as a whole, or other things that are not easily observed.<BR/><BR/>Surely if we conclude that one or more things are not caused it would be good to see if we can find out what they are - at what point do causal chains actually run out? Why assume in advance that we'll find just one thing, or even just one class of things?<BR/><BR/>And even if there is just one thing that is uncaused, why should that thing bear any resemblance to the Christian God, which has many properties (personality, non-physicality, omnipotence, omniscience, benevolence, love of wine, hatred of shellfish, etc.) that have nothing to do with the argument? The one and only First Cause would be something special, since there would only be one of it. But it could be some kind of ultimate causal thing that is, for example, totally impersonal and physical. Even if causes run out eventually, with just one thing at the bottom, we don't know in advance what that thing will be like.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-58466615804560799342009-03-07T11:40:00.000-08:002009-03-07T11:40:00.000-08:00I left a comment on the blog that Kenneth Hynek li...I left a comment on the blog that Kenneth Hynek linked, "<A HREF="http://deepsoftime.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/are-a-self-existing-god-and-a-self-existing-universe-parallels/" REL="nofollow">Michael’s excellent article on self-existent things</A>."<BR/><BR/>In case you ever run into someone trying to argue via Aquinas you might try this:<BR/><BR/>Has it ever occurred to you that if your requirements for a First Cause were valid that they would rule out the God described in the Bible?<BR/><BR/>Here’s how:<BR/><BR/>You say: “…the First Cause must be simple, or have no division into parts, because parts can only be related to one another by some principle extrinsic to the parts themselves to which all the parts have a relation — …”<BR/><BR/>That argues against the God of the Bible because by your definition of parts that can only be related to one another by some principle extrinsic to the parts themselves would include all the mental attributes the ancient Bible writers projected onto the God they created in their own image. It argues against the First Cause having any kind of mind because all those mental abilities are relational. To think is to think about something, as you do when you think about what caused the universe. To know is to know about something that can only be extrinsic to you. ultimately thinking and knowing are a relationship to the extrinsic things you think and know about. To desire is to desire something extrinsic and without desire there can be no will.<BR/><BR/>You can’t just say those parts are material only and then replace all their thingness with pseudo-things like neo-Platonic essences to serve your purposes of having non-material parts, not when they echo the properties of the material world. Essences are things too, taking up the same mental niche as the things they are essences of.<BR/><BR/>Without those mental traits you can’t have the God described by the Bible. That God gets angry at sin (a very relational thing) who punishes, who rewards (relational to something extrinsic again unless we’re God).<BR/><BR/>And when you say: “So whenever the First Cause is reached, it must be absolutely simple” you demonstrate that your thinking on this can’t be valid because the most absolutely simple, no relationship, no change, “thing” we can imagine is not God, but nothing. And since nothing can come from nothing - being immutable and all - and we observe that there is indeed something, then we must conclude that there is no such thing as nothing which is the simplest and most immutable “thing” we can imagine.<BR/><BR/>And if the simplest and most immutable thing doesn’t cut it, then your requirement that it be the First Cause fails.normdoeringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03279378756658563565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-5898749888192024552009-03-07T01:17:00.000-08:002009-03-07T01:17:00.000-08:00Do both of course. Have a simple post that links t...Do both of course. Have a simple post that links to more in-depth posts that focus on particular subjects.<BR/><BR/>Readability is good.<BR/><BR/>Hynek likely won't be swayed by anything here, but one of his readers coming over out of curiosity could be. A giant wall of text studded by youtube videos will likely exceed attention spans and memory capacity.ValorPhoenixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03638883026281251693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-89774593977622745672009-03-07T00:35:00.000-08:002009-03-07T00:35:00.000-08:00ValorPhoenix wrote:"...I would have kept to simply...ValorPhoenix wrote:<BR/><I>"...I would have kept to simply pointing out the obvious. Getting detailed and long-winded makes obfuscation all too easy."</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think I can do that. I think this necessarily has to be complicated. I did a little reading of Aquinas before breaking to watch Battlestar Galactica and I've noticed that Kenneth Hynek doesn't actually seem to get Aquinas. So, he is being a bit of a fraud in pretending that he does.<BR/><BR/>The evidence for that is this statement:<BR/><BR/>"There is the potential for error in attributing certain qualities to the First Cause, which must satisfy (at minimum) two conditions — simplicity and immutability."<BR/><BR/>Aquinas doesn't actually make the argument Hynek thinks Aquinas does. Aquinas never says the First cause must be simplicity and immutability. At least not in a straight forward fashion. Aquinas argues that there has to be a first cause using, basically, what boils down to the argument that there cannot be an infinite chain of causes and effects, therefore there must be a first cause and then through god-of-the-gaps reasoning assumes that first cause must be God - then argues that God must be simple and immutable, not necessarily the first cause - which is only assumed to be God.<BR/><BR/>You can have first causes that are not God (a quantum fluctuation). <BR/><BR/>Weirdly, Hynek started arguing that quantum fluctuations might have mental properties (you can't prove there are no pink unicorns therefore there are pink unicorns reasoning). Thus trying to jump the god-of-the-gaps argument with another variety of specious reasoning not used by Aquinas.<BR/><BR/>How do you say that, provide evidence for it, and still manage to be short and simple?normdoeringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03279378756658563565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-78459170454472079222009-03-06T22:47:00.000-08:002009-03-06T22:47:00.000-08:00Yeah, the was a typo, immutable = doesn't change.A...Yeah, the was a typo, immutable = doesn't change.<BR/><BR/>As for the rest, the stuff he linked to was standard apologetics, specifically dealing with "Is God Immutable?" and "Is God Simple?"<BR/><BR/>I don't really care to bother with such stuff, I just visited because you asked at PZ's blog. I did find his bald assertion that he had an argument amusing however, particularly since he didn't mention what the argument was at all.<BR/><BR/>You post here are nicely indepth, but I would have kept to simply pointing out the obvious. Getting detailed and long-winded makes obfuscation all too easy.ValorPhoenixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03638883026281251693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3869924253948047268.post-37893056749018388672009-03-06T17:37:00.000-08:002009-03-06T17:37:00.000-08:00Thanks for your comment ValorPhoenix."Immutability...Thanks for your comment ValorPhoenix.<BR/><BR/><I>"Immutability just means it does change. Simple is simple.</I>"<BR/><BR/>That can't be right. You meant it <B>doesn't</B> change -- is not mutable; unchangeable; changeless, as the dictionary says. <BR/><BR/>And even there the context is strange. Everything in the universe is mutable, changing, not even the atomic particles we are made of will last forever. Even time and space can change. <BR/><BR/>And just saying "simple" isn't good enough. Are we talking some kind of algorithmic simplicity? And do they really want to claim "God is simple minded?"normdoeringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03279378756658563565noreply@blogger.com